Ordinance Committee Meeting from June 7, 2016


JUNE 7, 2016



Committee Chair Mr. Hoefle opened the meeting at approximately 5:30 ­­­p.m. Members of the Committee in attendance were Mr. Hoefle, Mr. Meyers and Mr. Spotton. Present from Council were Mr. Zuren, Mr. Kasunick and Mr. Evers. Council President Ms. DePledge was absent and excused.


In attendance from the Administration were Mayor Morley and CBO Menn.


Also in attendance were members of the public.


Members of the audience that were taping the meeting.


Angelo Trivisonno



There was nothing under Proposed.



Discuss deer culling.

Mr. Hoefle: This meeting tonight is for information only. Mayor Morley is there anything that you would like to add at this time?


Mayor Morley: After our last meeting and with the discussions that I have had with Mr. Vogler since the last meeting. One he wanted to show a permit packet that he was looking and possibly a time line as to where City Council wants to possibly go with this.  Or to not go with it and that is why we are here.


Mr. Hoefle: Mr. Vogler would you like to add some additional information at this time?


Mr. Vogler: The hunting packet that I presented to you is a rough draft. There are some corrections and alterations and they are relatively simple to do.  Basically what we did is we looked at Mentor’s packet.  Mentor’s program has been up and running and it has been in creditably successful.  We looked at their packet and we did some minor alterations to it.  These alterations include predominantly one that Mentor’s ordinance requires that you have to be within 100 feet inside the property line that is the land that you have permission to hunt upon.  We altered that to be 50 feet in Eastlake.  The property lots in the city are significantly smaller.  We wanted to give a little bit more lee way there.  Additionally Mentor’s ordinance requires that you do not have any hunting on Sunday.  It was never made clear as to why that was part of the ordinance and that was discarded.  The safety harnesses I think that is a good addition to have for our city.  To insure that we insolate ourselves from a liability as well as to make sure that we focus the idea around safety living in city limits.  We talked before about the idea of having no tree climbers and having latter stands.  Latter stand are a lot safer.  You can identify…it’s the closest thing you have to a permanent structure in the middle of the woods.  It is easily erected and disassembled after the season.  The packet that I have put together I afforded the opportunity for the Chief of Police to make an exception that he sees fit.  My thinking was what if we have a resident of this municipality that is a disabled veteran.  There are some climber tree stands on the market that are electric.  It allows someone who is an amputee to pick out a tree and climb up it.  We have an option for a veteran in the city or someone who has an amputee for whatever reason.  There is some flexibility.  In the packet it talks about a discussion on marking tape or trail tape twice wrapped around the tree.  It is one inch by two hundred yards. I think that you can buy it for three feet.  You wrap it around the tree twice and it comes in different colors.  That way when they come out in the middle of the season to make sure that the hunter hasn’t moved his stand, it’s easy to identify what tree it was originally approved by.  It’s a spotting mechanism is all that it is.  We actually go out in the middle of the season or the beginning of the season.  To make sure that sure that the hunter hasn’t moved his stand around that was the thinking behind it.  Everything else is pretty much mirrored that of Mentor’s program.  There is one more and that is the Mentor program…actually this is an error in my judgement on Mentor’s program.  They actually use the word “doe” in their ordinance.  If you want to control a herd you control the female, because they are the ones who drop the fawns.  They use the word “doe” and this created a lot of stress for a lot of the hunters in that city, because if you want to have a cull you have to manage the female population.  They drop the fawns.  If you have a hunter that is 20 feet up in a tree, and you have brown leaves on the grounds, a brown deer, and he discharges his arrow to harvest that deer it’s a button buck.  Technically that hunter is in violation.  That’s not very reasonable.  Do we want them to try and get a doe first sure, but let’s use the word “antlerless” instead of “doe”?  It’s a little bit more reasonable and prudent I think.  Those are the only alterations from Mentor’s packet compared to Eastlake’s packet.  That’s all.


Mr. Hoefle: Thank you. Some of the things that I have been looking at are in the first presentation you were looking to go with three continuous acres.  A lot of the municipalities that I am seeing have approved it to by the voters by five continuous acres.  From what I understand is that Willoughby is moving forward with anything.  The Metro Parks…my concern would be that ever if we were to approve something like in my opinion I would like to see it back to five acres.  We also have to look at if it was approved and you cull 30 or 40 deer along the Willoughby line are they just going to come over from Willoughby or the Metro Parks.  Are we going to be fitting a battle that…


Mr. Vogler: It’s endless. I would offer in my opinion the…cities do start off with five.  For example Mentor started off with five and then they toned it down too three, because five…three to five.  As long as the deer can drop on the land that you are hunting who really cares.  Yes many cities do start off with five, but over time they taper it back because it doesn’t make sense.  I understand where you are coming from but I would offer that perhaps that with the city which is smaller than ours and has smaller lots.  Three would suffice.  As far as not having the Metro Parks or Willoughby on board and moving at the same pace that we are.  I can understand your concern with that.  I guess that my agreement would be if we eradicated all of the deer in the City of Eastlake that will not solve the problem.  Once we control the herd you will still have the issue of maintenance.  You have to move forward in some direction and we have to do something.  Is it going to be a never ending battle? Much of life is.  Are we going to solve the problem?  No we will never solve the problem in a city environment with the deer.  Should we do something this is the logical option?


Mr. Hoefle: The other thing is that I received an email back on March 1. What we had questioned on Chief Reik in regards to approximately how many accidents?  He said that there were approximately 174 accidents involving deer from January 1, 2010 through today, which was March 1, 2016 from this email.  When you take the amount of days over those six years and a couple of months the amount of accidents is .077.  I was very minimal of what we are seeing in our city. 


Mr. Vogler: If you took a look at that ratio that is probably actually within reasonable parameters as far as ODNR is concerned. That is not an unreasonably high number for our city, but I think that is just part of the puzzle.  It’s really more on the issue of you can’t have any kind of vegetation, because they are eating everything.  The car verses deer accidents is part of the puzzle and it’s not an unreasonable number for our city.  I think that it is one part of the pie chart.


Mr. Hoefle: Mayor Morley?


Mayor Morley: I think that we talked about this in the first meeting. Most of the calls that I get are about the nuisance.  The big areas that most of the calls are coming from are the Surfside area, where is backs up to the park.  We have Reeves Road area and then we have Erie Road that is over there by Rural.  Those are the spots where most of the people have called on in the city.  Again we are looking at this to see if this is where we want to go.  Unfortunately the way that the Gazette works I had article in before we set this meeting and in the first meeting we had about thirty people and obviously today we have two people.  I think that Mr. Vogler wants to look at some time lines and if this is where you want to go.  If you don’t want to go I think that he would like to know that too.  We’re not looking for an answer tonight.  I have told Mr. Vogler this is not going to be something that we can just move quickly on.  We need to get all of our facts and all of our information.  That is what we have been doing between Mr. Vogler and me.  Especially when I have time to go and get the other cities ordinances and what they have passed.  That’s what the goal is here to see where we can go.


Mr. Hoefle: Mr. Zuren?


Mr. Zuren: I have a question for Mr. Vogler. Are there any surrounding cities that have a deer hunting ordinance?


Mr. Vogler: It’s sitting there.


Mr. Zuren: Mentor is the only one? All of the other ones…


Mr. Vogler: Kirtland has one. Hunting Valley has one and there are a couple of cities down by Hunting Valley and Woodmere that have.  Once they…


Mr. Kasunick: Shaker just started one.


Mr. Vogler: Shaker just started one.


Mayor Morley: Parma, Broadview Heights and I think those are the ones that we sent over.

Mr. Vogler: Those are in our area, but what I am most familiar with is Mentor’s.


Mr. Zuren: Do you know what the statistics are on the years taken in…


Mr. Vogler: Yes that was in my PowerPoint. In fact give me a second and I will pull that up for you.


Mr. Hoefle: Is there anybody else who has questions for Mr. Vogler while he is looking for that information? Mr. Evers?


Mr. Evers: I know that the City of Mentor did it and paid for it and I know someone did too. They had an aerial overhead count by ODNR.  Are there any plans for our city to do that?  And if so who is going to pay for this?


Mayor Morley: The last discussion that I had with Mayor Anderson is we were looking at doing a joint picture. I have not talked with him lately on that.  I know that it is pricey and from what I have been told and we have not gotten any prices on it. 


Mr. Evers: I have also heard that Mentor spends up to $100,000.00 a year on their program.


Mayor Morley: That is correct. They use their SWAT team and they provide the entire arsenal that they have for it along with all of the extra hours that they do.  I am not sure if they have someone that it is part of their full time job.


Mr. Evers: Full time job.


Mr. Vogler: They have three wildlife officers.


Mr. Evers: We do not have that luxury here in this city. That would be a major concern for me coming from a financial standpoint.  I also agree with Mr. Hoefle on the three acres in the city…no way it would have to be five acres.

Mr. Vogler: Ok.


Mr. Evers: The houses are too close together. As you know being a deer hunter that deer can “jump the string”. 


Mr. Vogler: True.


Mr. Evers: You brought up a fact that out in Mentor that a couple of times the police had to be called to recover a deer.


Mr. Vogler: Yes sir.


Mr. Evers: How far did they run? Do you remember?


Mr. Vogler: I don’t know every case.


Mr. Evers: Right.


Mr. Vogler: The farthest that I am aware of was two houses away.


Mr. Evers: It was two houses away, so it was outside the hunting area.


Mr. Vogler: Correct and the herd was near the property. I understand where you are coming from and for the vast amount of deer that were harvested it was such a small percentage.  But it is still there and it is something you should have to negotiate.  No argument right?


Mr. Evers: Right.


Mr. Vogler: Let’s be honest it is a wild…and anything can happen. If you wanted to air on the side of caution and if you want to go five acres and see, maybe what we should do is and it is do the five acres and see if we have any problems.  It is an idea and we can negotiate from that point.


Mr. Evers: The other concern of mine would be is that those five acres have to be posted and posted publicly.  That there is hunting on that land even if it is private land.  I don’t think that the safety zone of 50 feet is enough.


Mr. Vogler: Ok.


Mr. Evers: I sure wouldn’t want someone 50 feet from my neighbor’s house hunting deer.


Mr. Vogler: Ok.


Mr. Evers: I would be much more satisfied…I’d say 100 yards, but 100 yards in this city is a little stretch. We are bringing up concerns here about things that need to be looked at.


Mr. Hoefle: Mr. Vogler were you able to come up with the answer to Mr. Zuren’s question?


Mr. Vogler: I am working on it.


Mr. Zuren: We found it over here on.


Mr. Hoefle: Mr. Spotton?


Mr. Spotton: My concern is that without a study with the actual numbers…I mean without those numbers how do you expect to go forward with anything?


Mr. Vogler: Without which numbers?


Mr. Spotton: Without a study saying we’re within so many per square mile that seems to be the study with every study that I saw. It usually likes to be in the teens.  Without that number that is kind of no starter.  I need to know that number.


Mayor Morley: Are you talking about if we did an aerial or what are you looking for?


Mr. Spotton: This is really a problem and they are going by…I am seeing from a lot of the studies that it is going at 40 per square mile and that’s a problem. A lot of them like to be down in the teens.  If we are down in the teens now then it’s not a problem.


Mayor Morley: I guess we could…I don’t know if the Metro Parks. I had a meeting with the Metro Parks about a year ago and I don’t know if they had any numbers or not that I could get from them.  I don’t know about our area but again we talked and I will talk with Mayor Anderson again about the aerial.  I know at that time he…


Mr. Spotton: Then it becomes a financial problem too where we don’t have the money.


Mr. Hoefle: Mr. Evers?


Mr. Evers: Talking with ODNR the best time to do the aerial is in the winter. They cannot do them in the summer when the leaves are on the trees.  They prefer that the snow is to be on the ground.  The deer are easier to track.  So that would eliminate anything this year.


Mr. Hoefle: Mr. Kasunick or Mr. Meyers are there any questions from you guys? Mr. Kasunick?


Mr. Kasunick: I have just a quick one. The propose ordinances here it says…I take it that this is just what the City of Mentor will begin procession on?


Mayor Morley: Right.


Mr. Kasunick: The aerial survey is that a requirement? Does anyone know if whether that is a requirement or if it is just a suggestion?


Mayor Morley: I think that it is just a suggestion. I could try and get all of the information that I have to you guys.  I thought that I did and maybe I did not. From all of the other meeting that I have had with the ODNR and I will make copies of everything and try to get them over.


Mr. Kasunick: At a future meeting…I take it that this is the last meeting that we will have on this subject. Could we have an ODNR representative sit in on that meeting?


Mayor Morley: You have contacts with them.


Mr. Vogler: Sure there is more than one Ranger. They actually have an ordinance written that they say we suggest that you use this, because they have done this so many times.


Mr. Kasunick: I just want to make sure that we are in full compliance with everything that we do to move forward on anything.


Mr. Vogler: I will reach out to ODNR. There is more than one Ranger that I am sure who would be willing to sit in.

Mr. Hoefle: Mayor Morley?


Mayor Morley: I thought that we would like I said in the beginning of the meeting we are just right…I told Mr. Vogler that this is just fact finding right now to get all of the information together. If we do decide to go somewhere we will bring our residents in.  Again the calls are on the nuisance and it is not about the accidents.  I talked to Chief Reik about that too. 


Mr. Hoefle: Mr. Zuren do you have another question?


Mr. Zuren: I have another question regarding and it is derived off of Mr. Evers question regarding public safety. On page nine Section I it talks about a wounded deer going a zone that is not set for hunting.  You mentioned that the one that you knew about in Mentor was two houses away that was the farthest a deer went.  Are there any statistics on how many deer in Mentor yearly?


Mr. Vogler: Twelve.


Mr. Zuren: To call the police to have them euthanized or kill the deer?


Mr. Vogler: I would like to think that they would keep records on that. I can generate that information for you if that is your pleasure.  I can tell you right here and now that ODNR does not.  I know that for a fact, but as far as how many times Mentor has been called out for…


Mr. Zuren: They have three Wildlife Officers.


Mr. Vogler: They started with three and now they are down to two. They are trying to look for another one.


Mr. Zuren: So if they were the ones called they would know…


Mr. Vogler: I would like to think that their record keeping would be well established with the employees.


Mr. Hoefle: Mayor Morley?


Mayor Morley: I can check with the City Manager of Mentor and see. If we wind up in another meeting…and if we could get ahold of ODNR representative and someone from the City of Mentor that does their program.  I marked down an ODNR representative and a City of Mentor representative and we will try and coordinate that if we have another meeting.


Mr. Hoefle: Mr. Spotton?


Mr. Spotton: ODNR is going to require more…to pull a permit with them it is going to require more than just us saying that this needs to be done right?


Mr. Vogler: No.


Mr. Spotton: I mean beside and no offense. Somebody coming up and saying that we need to do this and let’s go do it.


Mr. Vogler: Actually it depends on what type of hunt that you do. If you do a controlled hunt verses a cull.  We are using these terms interchangeably in the definition are different.  For example a true culling permit takes about a year’s worth of study by a biologist.  From my understanding it is sent to one person in Columbus and he says either yes or no and that’s the end of it.  That is for a true cull but what we are looking at is more along the lines of a controlled hunt.  The State of Ohio would allow somebody to go hunting on Saint Lawrence Boulevard right now, it is prohibited by city ordinance.  So what we are looking at doing is to relax that and allowing it with a regulation.  If the ODNR came in here right now they would really say “piece be with you”. In one regard your right and in one regard you’re…because we are using these terms not by specific definition.


Mr. Spotton: We are talking about…


Mr. Hoefle: Are there any other questions from anybody on Council? Mr. Menn do you have anything? 


CBO Menn: I was just wondering if they know about how to get permission? I know typically we would probably knock on their door but what would be my responsibility of giving out their names and stuff like that?  I have people coming up to us a lot of times.


Mr. Hoefle: Mr. Evers?


Mr. Evers: Before we even get to that we need to sit down with you and look at a zoning map. To decide that these areas are totally off limits or these areas are open.


CBO Menn: Correct and I would recommend that if this ever does go through that a map be attached to the location so that they know exactly where the zone ends.


Mr. Evers: Yes.


CBO Menn: What happens if it is a bank owned property? I know that there is a form in here that they need to get a certified seal and stamp and everything.  Has that ever come up with bank owned properties?


Mr. Hoefle: Mr. Vogler?


Mr. Vogler: First and for most and I am just throwing the idea that we don’t relinquish people’s names and numbers. You might get someone who says please let hunters know that I am welcoming them on my land.  That may occur and it has happened in other cities.  But I would recommend that we go to the County Auditor’s web page and have the hunter do the research on their own.  As far as a business owned land or bank owned land I am on 14 acres in Mentor and it was satisfied for all requirements to have just one of the owners of the company sign it.  As far as bank owned I describe to the bank you would say yes….repo the house.  I would be real surprised by that.  But if it is a privately owned business land for example Osborne…the property owner of the business or manager of that land so he is responsible of that land.


Mr. Hoefle: Are there any other questions? As we have said in the beginning of the meeting this is just for fact finding anyways.  We have this information and we will table this meeting.  Was there anything under Miscellaneous? Mr. Evers?


Mr. Evers: From an EPAL standpoint per our lease. Any improvements that we make to the Eastlake Community Center needs the approval of Council we are working with retired Fire Marshall Mr. Fogi and our current Fire Marshall Lt. Drake to replace the fire alarm system. It is pretty antiquated.  It will be at no cost to the city and I will be coming in to work with Mr. Menn tomorrow or the next day once the plans are there.  I just need to inform Council that we are going ahead with this and again there is no cost what so ever to the city.  That is one of the improvements that we are making.  If there are any objections please give me a call or talk to me after wards.


Mr. Hoefle: Mr. Vogler?


Mr. Vogler: I just wanted to take this opportunity to remind Council that as far as the costs that are involved in this. I was the one that said that I am still will to volunteer my time to manage the program for the city.


Mayor Morley: We’ve had that discussion and most of the other areas…sat down with the Chief and I can’t have the Chief start doing this. He is doing too many things now and Mr. Vogler is aware of that.  The Chief is off on vacation but he is going to do some more research once he sees where City Council wants to go with this.




Mayor Morley had nothing to report.


There were no further questions or comments.



Mr. Klammer was absent and excused.

There were no further questions or comments.



Mrs. Schindel was absent and excused.


There were no further questions or comments.



There was nothing under Miscellaneous.



Bob Spangenberg, 1034 Eastlake Drive, Eastlake

Mr. Spangenberg: Mr. Vogler what is your expertise in this field?


Mr. Vogler: I am a Master Instructor for the Ohio Department of Natural Resources. Some of my background is that I have a degree in Criminal Justice and I have been a Police Officer for over 20 years.  I am currently a Federal Narcotics Officer.  I have been hunting and fishing for years.  I am also an instructor for the Ohio Department of Natural Resources.


Mr. Spangenberg: That is my only question and I just wanted to know who I was talking with.


Mr. Vogler: My pleasure sir.


There was no one who wished to speak.


The meeting was adjourned at 5:55 p.m.





                                                                        APPROVED: __________________________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        DATE: ________________________________

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